Candu
Tairise Member
Life: What happens while you are making other plans
Posts: 670
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Post by Candu on Oct 21, 2008 16:15:04 GMT -7
The Depot just ran out of Feyiron. Any harvesters that have the time and desire, please take note Cove of Decay, if your adventure level is high enough is the perfect place to harvest Teir 4 nodes... Zone in, clear out all the valuable nodes Zone out, Zone back in... all the nodes restocked Rinse, repeat... Candu Heading that way now.
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Libelle
Tairise Ally
Tangent Girl!
Posts: 511
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Post by Libelle on Oct 21, 2008 18:04:44 GMT -7
Good advice! I'm heading home soon and will see what I can do about feyiron.
PS: I think this is a really good way of advertising what we are short on.
PPS: I was thinking about rares the other day and that the depot is likely not the best place for them for this reason: When I look at a recipe, it's not always clear to me which is the rare, because if all of the fields are white (if you know what I mean), I don't go to the bank or broker to find what I need. It would be really easy for me to "auto-use" a rare that is in the depot on a recipe that I was using just for the experience, which I don't want to do...
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Post by Kirac on Oct 22, 2008 0:41:26 GMT -7
\PS: I think this is a really good way of advertising what we are short on. PPS: I was thinking about rares the other day and that the depot is likely not the best place for them for this reason: When I look at a recipe, it's not always clear to me which is the rare, because if all of the fields are white (if you know what I mean), I don't go to the bank or broker to find what I need. It would be really easy for me to "auto-use" a rare that is in the depot on a recipe that I was using just for the experience, which I don't want to do... This is good. We need to know what folks need, since I HATE the idea of getting the Harvest Bots (WAY Pricey and not very efficient, IMO). Since I dislike the bots, it does mean that people need to get out and do some harvesting and deposit in the Depot for this to work. It requires some "team effort." I am willing to do this, but no-one wants to spend half of their game time just harvesting nodes. As far as Rares go... You should keep the rares in your bank. I have 2 Redwood crates with ones I have found. That way, you never mistakenly craft a Rare item you didn't want. Kirac has done THAT a few times... An idea was posted in another thread about using the Guild hall Broker (NOT the World Broker!!!) to put rares up for "cheap" sale to other guildies. The Guild Hall broker is NOT available yet (SOE had some glitches with it). The GHB allows you to sell but ONLY within the guild. That way you can open with your 17 Waxed Leather Pelts (T1 rare pelt) at whatever you think is "fair" (be that price 1 silver or 2 Plat...). Since only Guild members can access the GHB, there is little risk of some farmer buying it all up and reselling at a higher price (to monopolize the market, so to speak).
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Post by Alfreya on Oct 22, 2008 4:47:23 GMT -7
Feyiron seems to be a chronic problem with T4 harvests, I really believe that there is a problem with the loot table for this item. Having said that, the Cove of Decay is a wonderful idea, Candu ! I will see what I can do in that regard as well.
Another idea that might help is something that we did in my old guild. Harvesting on your own can sometimes be a kind of tedious process. To alleviate that, my old guild used to hold harvest parties on a regular basis. We would post the date and time and get a couple of high level toons to act as escorts and form harvesting groups. It was a mostly social outing for about an hour or so and we would just cycle farm the heck out of an area. It was sometimes a great way for some lower level toons to get some harvesting experience in areas that they would otherwise have to fight things for. It is also a good way to stock the guild on rares when you are cycle harvesting like that. Everyone that participated got rewarded with a rare or two to keep and the Guild harvesting bank got stocked. Plus everyone had fun in a laid back social outing just chatting and having a good time. Maybe something like that would also help us get the guild spirit flowing freely again ? Just a thought for consideration.
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Post by Kwibble (Shazap) on Oct 22, 2008 6:48:52 GMT -7
For anyone who is interested, I've been working on a spreadsheet to track our inventory levels over time. So far I've been updating this about once a week. I don't think we can host files on this website; however, the Tairise website on GuildPortal.com has the ability to host a few files and I may post it there (I'm at work and on a different computer, so I'll have to post it later tonight). Unfortunately GuildPortal.com file hosting usage restrictions will prevent me from posting a direct link to the file from outside of GuildPortal; however, I believe I can post a link to the Tairise GuildPortal.com page, and then put a link to the file from within the main page. I'll post more info when that is done.
As I've posted before, although I agree the harvesting bots are not the "be all, end all" to meet our needs, I do believe they could nicely augment the harvesting we are doing. Feyiron isn't the only issue we have. When I was going through tier 3, carbonite was also hard to come by in sufficient quantity. Fulginate was the rarest item for tier 5. Indium seems to be the second rarest form of common item from tier 6. So, I personally think a mining harvesting bot concentrating on these mid-tiers would help our ore levels. Even with ore being a problem, right now it seems the thing I keep running out of right now for my four tier 6 crafters is succulent roots. I keep having to send Shaz out to the Southern Tear in SS to run circles and pick up as much succulent root as I can find, and then my crafters eat it up like candy. I believe belladonna root runs rather rare for tier 3 as well. So, a gathering harvesting bot concentrating on T6 right now would also be beneficial. Do these benefits justify their cost? well THAT IS the question. Time is money, whether the crafting bots alleviate an hour of harvesting time so you can play (and get rich), versus the money/status (and therefore invested time) to buy and pay upkeep for the bots.
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frazzled
Tairise Ally
Anyone need a Wizard?
Posts: 104
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Post by frazzled on Oct 22, 2008 9:25:29 GMT -7
What is a harvesting bot and how does it work?
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Post by Yerkich on Oct 22, 2008 10:20:29 GMT -7
It's a guild hall amenity that will harvest a specific set of raws for you. From what I have read it is quite expensive and the amount of return is quite low. I am not positive but I think a players who has commissioned the hireling can set the amount of time it should harvest, but only one person at a time can use it. It also does not harvest any rares.
I am voting with the party who thinks at it's current implementation that it is too expensive for it's return and maybe when it can harvest and automatically put the raws in the guild depot and the amount of raws it returns is higher it might be worth it.
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Post by Kwibble (Shazap) on Oct 22, 2008 11:01:53 GMT -7
This is my understanding.... There are three types of harvesting hirelings:
Miner - harvests from ore and rock nodes Gatherer - harvests from roots, wood, and shrubs Hunter - harvests from animal den and fish nodes
Again, from my understanding, the way you use one is to set the tier, and then it goes and harvests a random selection of the node types for two hours, generating 100 "pulls". No one else can use that harvester until it is done with our task. I believe that the assortment of results you get is similar to what you would see when you harvest - usually 1 of an item, but maybe 3 or 5. I've read conflicting things about rares. I've seen it said that they return commons only, but I've also read where rares have been (rarely) returned. Perhaps the results are akin to what you would expect with no racial harvesting advantages and no harvesting tools - perhaps even with minimal skill for the tier. This would give you a truly rare opportunity to return a rare item, whereas if you are maxxed for the tier, have harvesting tools which convey a success chance bonus, have the bonuses from the crafting epic earring, and even racial traditions that improve harvesting skills, you have a much better chance of rolling on the "good" result table, meaning you can pull a rare more often if you harvest it yourself.
Even so, let's do a conservative straw calculation: Let's say we're sending a miner bot to T6 in search of indium, and a gathering bot out for succulent roots. Just for estimation purposes, let's say that the bot has an equal chance of selecting the correct node type for what we want versus one of the other node types, and that the item we want has an equal chance to be pulled as the other items from that node type. Let's say that when pulling, it has a 75% chance to get 1 of an item, 20% to get 3, 5% to get 5, and a 0% chance for rares. Although it's theoretically possible to send the bot out 12 times in a 24 hour period, let's say that we'll get 4 uses per day, 7 days per week. Let' say that indium and succulent roots are priced at 15s and 20s respectively on the broker (based on current cheapest prices at this moment in time), and everything else is worthless. Deal or No Deal?
Miner bot: 100 pulls = 50 pulls from ore, 50 pulls from rock (worthless). 50 pulls from ore = 25 pulls of indium , 25 pulls of loam (worthless). 25 pulls of ore = 19 @ 1 + 5 @ 3 + 1 @ 5 = 39 indium ores returned. Monetary value of indium vs being purchased for a single run = 39 * 15s = 5g85s. Monetary value of indium for the week (approx 1092 indium clusters) = 5g85s x 4 runs/day x 7 days = 1p63g80s.
Harvester bot: 100 pulls = 33 pulls from roots, 33 pulls from wood (worthless), 34 pulls from shrubs (worthless). 33 pulls from roots = 33 pulls of succulent roots. 33 pulls of roots = 24 @ 1 + 8 @ 3 + 1 @ 5 = 53 succulent roots returned. Monetary value of succulent roots vs being purchased for a single run = 53 * 20s = 10g60s. Monetary value of succulent roots for the week (approx 1484 succulent roots) = 10g60s x 4 runs/day x 7 days = 2p96g80s.
So, based on today's broker prices, assuming average pulls, no rares, 4 uses per day of each broker, I estimate the "value" of what the bots would return to be over a plat and a half for the miner, and nearly 3 plat for the gatherer. The purchase price of each is 20p, with a 40g per week upkeep. Assuming steady prices (a BIG assumption - prices have already dropped considerably - roots used to be 50s - 1g each), this equates to a payback period of 17 weeks for the miner and 8 weeks for the gatherer. I still believe the hunter provides no return whatsoever because there is very little demand for pelts, animal foodstuffs or fishing harvestables. Folks can generally buy what they need for under 1s, although now that I review the broker prices, I see that stonehide pelts (T6) are actually quite expensive (50s or so), so there may well be value for a hunter as well.
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Post by Yerkich on Oct 22, 2008 11:20:24 GMT -7
So much math, I applaud you. So from all your calculations and (20p, with a 40g per week upkeep), how long and how many "needed" raws later does the hireling pay for itself? Is that more feasible then having people harvesting the tier needed from time to time to keep the depot stocked?
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Post by Kwibble (Shazap) on Oct 22, 2008 11:34:13 GMT -7
Ah, I buried the answer to that question down in the math. lol
Payback period for miner: 17 weeks (1092 x 17 = 18,564 needed raws)
Payback period for gatherer: 8 weeks (1484 x 8 = 11,872 needed raws)
Payback period for hunter: unknown - not calculated
Subject to key assumptions as described in my post of course (insert your favorite disclaimer here)
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Post by Kirac on Oct 22, 2008 12:31:33 GMT -7
I got to disagree with the math Shaz I believe it is NOT 100 pulls, but 100 items. So you could get 100 roots, 100 nodes. 1) Harvester - you assumed 1/3 of pulls would yield roots. However, roots only comprise 1/6 of the Harvest table (Wood, Root, 2X Vegetable, 1XFruit). Now I could be wrong, but if we only get back 17 roots per trip, the value is dropped dramatically. 2) Miners value also comes from Loams and Alchemist and Tinkerers use LOTS of loam. Part of my hesitation of using bots is that folks would have no reason to harvest themselves. While tedious, it is part of the game. I find that is sometimes rewarding to spend some quiet time running to nodes hoping for that "Rare harvest found!" I think a Harvest party could be fun...Just no picking on the Big Ogre butt as it sticks up when he harvests ;D Also value is market driven. The price is going to drop as guilds stock up and sell the raw materials on Broker. I believe in the idea of being self-sufficient, and not just using "tricks" like a harvest bot. Remember, 3 weeks ago, you had to go harvest what you needed yourself, or spend scads of money on broker. Wasn't the best way to spend time, but it worked (IMO).
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Post by Kwibble (Shazap) on Oct 22, 2008 12:58:48 GMT -7
I got to disagree with the math Shaz Disagreements are cool! Not sure of it myself! ;-) I I believe it is NOT 100 pulls, but 100 items. So you could get 100 roots, 100 nodes. I honestly don't know. Some quick math, based on the 75%/20%/5% assumption I made, if that's not true then I've overstated the number of items returned by about 60%. To correct, take the value and multiply by 5/8 (62.5%). So, if I calculated the value of the mining bot to be about a plat and a half a week (1p63g), that would reduce to a hair over 1p a week, and they payback period would increase to about 34 weeks. For the harvesting bot, 2p96g would become 1p85, and the payback would go to 14 weeks. I1) Harvester - you assumed 1/3 of pulls would yield roots. However, roots only comprise 1/6 of the Harvest table (Wood, Root, 2X Vegetable, 1XFruit). Now I could be wrong, but if we only get back 17 roots per trip, the value is dropped dramatically. I would agree if this is the case, but I kinda doubt the gatherer would pull from a shrub node four out of every six times. That would seem like a bug to me. But again, I honestly don't know. I2) Miners value also comes from Loams and Alchemist and Tinkerers use LOTS of loam. I didn't look at what loams sell for on the broker since I've never really had a shortage and needed to find any. If they also have a value, then the miner bot becomes perhaps more valuable. IPart of my hesitation of using bots is that folks would have no reason to harvest themselves. While tedious, it is part of the game. I find that is sometimes rewarding to spend some quiet time running to nodes hoping for that "Rare harvest found!" On this comment I have to disagree. Having bots for the guild doesn't in any way preclude folks from going out and harvesting themselves at the same time. Perhaps their incentive is reduced a bit if they always have everything they need in the depot, but I believe the incentive is still there because 1) it's the only way to get rares, and the rares provide significant capability and/or plat 2) harvesting skills need to be raised to complete certain quests 3) the harvesting bots will most likely not be able to produce commons at a rate that will sustain the guild, so shortages could and would still happen - they just wouldn't be as severe or as frequent. II think a Harvest party could be fun...Just no picking on the Big Ogre butt as it sticks up when he harvests ;D I agree! If a party happens while I'm on, I would definitely be there unless I was already obligated to something else. Hmm... ogre butt next to gnome butt. THAT's funny! Don't step on me!!?? IAlso value is market driven. The price is going to drop as guilds stock up and sell the raw materials on Broker. Agreed, and it has already happened. As best as I can tell, the price of many items has driven down to 2cp. Those that are chronically in short supply still command a premium, but not nearly as much as they used to. Seems to me that prices have already deflated 60 to 70 percent. Not sure how much lower it will go. II believe in the idea of being self-sufficient, and not just using "tricks" like a harvest bot. Remember, 3 weeks ago, you had to go harvest what you needed yourself, or spend scads of money on broker. Wasn't the best way to spend time, but it worked (IMO). Again, I disagree. A harvesting bot won't make us self-sufficient - harvesting still needs to happen. However, perhaps there isn't a need to spend quite as much time doing it, which frees us up for a little more time adventuring. Still, the harvesting is always there when one wants to go in search of rares, introvert and/or relax a little, boost the supply of a particular resource that's needed for a crafting push, whatever. The only real question in my mind is that at the end of the day, will we spend more time/money paying for the amenity than the extra time/money it would have taken take to harvest or purchase the raws instead, and doing so in a logical and calculated manner (aka "non-subjective") was what I was trying to shed some light on with my post. IF we do go down the path of seriously considering the bots, then I think it would be good to get accurate clarification on just what the bots do return. (is it 100 raws? or 100 pulls? does the bot pull from each type of node equally? or for each resource type equally?) Having the correct information for these questions is crucial towards determining if they're truly worth it or not.
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frazzled
Tairise Ally
Anyone need a Wizard?
Posts: 104
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Post by frazzled on Oct 22, 2008 13:44:38 GMT -7
Wouldn't we still have to harvest for rares or buy them anyways. So I'll leave the math up to the experts. My play philosophy is: "I like to blow nuts up, port to a new location and blow more nuts up." But hey, that's just me
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Post by Kirac on Oct 22, 2008 14:18:32 GMT -7
Shaz, Nothing but love and brotherhood with you. I agree with certain points you make. Objectivity (straight fact) is hard to argue against. The interpretation is open to opinion though. (I speak in theoretical terms, not regarding this issue precisely). The other point (and you did bring this up ) time and value. Some folks value their time more than money, some value money more than time. How long it could take a toon to make Plat (to buy the rares) while gaming versus spending time to harvest and get a usable rare at random intervals ? (I have gotten 3 rares within 10 minutes and spent 2+hours and gotten nothing but commons ). Our experiences will differ. And how we value them will differ (sometimes ya wanna blow stuff up and sometimes like NOT being threatened) These are all factors to consider. I respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions, but I am a reasonable person and willing to listen to your arguments.
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Fasci
Tairise Member
Every knot was once straight rope.
Posts: 2,161
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Post by Fasci on Oct 27, 2008 14:13:48 GMT -7
Ow. My head hurts now.
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